I don't get it...

[Cross]

Okay, I'm a teenage atheist. I'm black, female and I live in a very religious city. I know I'm an uncommon breed of atheist, seeing as I am African American who was originally a Christian... but whatever. I'm unique among my peers and the adults who I speak to about this subject. Anyway, I don't understand something, I'm actually very confused. There are so many kinds of religions in the world, so many kinds of Gods and deities. And then there are the people who follow them, who are passionate about this religion and about their God. When I was a little girl, I use to think there was only one religion. I followed it because I was afraid of one thing that the preachers kept warning us little kids about.

 Hell.

  So, here I am, afraid and going to my knees to pray and bowing my head before this man who talks about religion. I continued to be a Christian (reluctantly, of course. I was never really into it, I found it ridiculous at times) until someone told me about atheism. It was a close friend, and I found myself thinking more and more about the topic. It was a bit much for me since I was in Middle School. Anyway, I finally realized how ridiculous religion was, that I didn't need it to function properly in life, and all the words those preachers and my mother and father uttered meant... nothing. I looked into it, and found out how ridiculous it was, it was like I was enlightened to the whole thing.

  I recently had a class with my friend who keeps trying to convert me. And because I'm passive, I'm sometimes swayed by his words. But I still find myself confused about the whole damn thing! So I asked questions.

  "How about other religions? They have different views, Christianity isn't the only-" I said

  "As long as you follow something, it's alright. But I would prefer you to believe in Jesus and God." He replied, cutting me off purposefully.

  Then I continued to talk about it, and being the idiot I was I kind of started to wonder if I'm making a mistake. And then, a thought crossed my mind. I thought about hell, the lake of fire, and the devil, the things people warn us about if we do not follow God. I now know, if I ever decided to follow God it would be out of fear, not love. It would be like doing a king's bidding because your afraid you'll be executed or exiled, or... or imprisoned, or something. If he were to appear before me, I wouldn't say I loved him, I wouldn't worship him, I would be afraid, terrified! I don't understand why I have to follow a religion. Everybody keeps berating me, and it's stressing me out beyond belief!

  Friend; "Oh my gosh, your going to hell..."

  Teacher; "Well, you should really think about worshiping God, he is your creator after all."

  Student; "Why you got to be different? Evolution ain't real!"

  Mother; "Don't you dare tell anybody about this, it's embarrassing. Don't you realize that your giving yourself a bad name!"

  Bus Driver; "Your a what?"

  Ignorant, impudent, narrow-minded... all of them. How am I suppose to know what's right and what's wrong to follow? Here is my friend telling me that if you follow this religion that your going to hell. Here is this other person going on about how I should be a Christian and bow down to the lord. I'm one teenage atheist, in a school filled with hundreds of Christians. And all I can say, I'm young, I'm stupid (aren't we all?) , and I'm confused about the whole thing.

  If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

I need an adult! I need an adult!

[Sophus]

Hello and a belated welcome from me to the forum, Cross.

Situations such as yours are really tough, although, unfortunately, not that uncommon. However, that means that there are plenty others who have gone through this and can help. There's an article here about how to come out of the religious closet.

It's been my experience that even though there are those who say "I would rather you believe in something, anything - just please don't be an atheist" they don't really mean that. There is usually just as much stereotyping and cynicism from one faith toward other faiths. For example, I really doubt that by feigning to have converted to Islam you will find your friends and family not wanting to convert you to Christianity any less.

The best thing to do may be to avoid talking about the subject of religion with your deeply religious friends if it is adding fire to your situation or making you uncomfortable. You're not likely to change their negative opinion of atheists if they can't carry a courteous conversation, so the next best thing would be to not to remind them to label you simply as an "atheist" by not bringing it up often. Instead of "atheist" you might choose a word with a different connotation, like "Skeptic" or "Freethinker". All in all, just try to be a peacemaker and hope they'll respect your wishes to keep the peace. Having been raised Christian myself, I went through some uncomfortable teenage years after I came out, and while I wouldn't advise remaining completely in the closet (as some here might) in retrospect I wish I had avoided a lot of discussion about religion at the time.

Best wishes and good luck!

[TheJackel]

You should follow what you believe and not what other people try to make you believe. Even after you read everything I have to say below, you need to decide what's best for you. It's your life, and it's your choices that should be respected by others around you. In fact, to ease your mind, many religious people don't even like organized religion, nor do many theist care about religion. And this is because you don't need one to believe in a GOD.. Basically religions are ideological constructs based around the concept of a higher power. It's basically man assuming the will of a deity. However, I am going to point you to a very important thread here. And this thread will certainly help you better understand how many religions function. They exhibit social dogmas designed to control you, and fear is generally on of those Dogmas. So here it is:

Religious Brainwashing: How it's done

I use to be a Christian myself, and I use to do the very things your friends, family, or church might do to keep you in line with their religious ideological construct. And many of them honestly are so brainwashed that they don't even know that they are attempting to do it to you. So don't blame them because that's what they have been taught to believe in. Hence, they are so fearful themselves that they actually think they are trying to "save you". So keep that in mind.

So I recommend that you also read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing. And I recommend this because it will not only protect you from things like this, but other things like commercial scams, scam artists, salesmen trying to sell you junk ect. When you are done reading those books, sit back and observe and you will be amazed at what you see in regards to your problem.

And btw the Post above mine has a lot of good advice to consider when or if you do confront your family and friends Also not that it's ok to believe in a GOD without fearing the GOD. So, if that is your reason to going to Atheism, you might want to think about that, or think if Atheism is truly what you believe. So, I wish you lots of luck! And welcome to the forums.

 Cheers!

[The Magic Pudding]

You've been clever enough to see nearly everyone around you is living a delusion.
You've been brave enough to ask people about it.
This is an admirable thing.

I thought what Sophus said made sense, you don't have to make your life to hard.

Having been raised Christian myself, I went through some uncomfortable teenage years after I came out, and while I wouldn't advise remaining completely in the closet (as some here might) in retrospect I wish I had avoided a lot of discussion about religion at the time.

I suppose we all can be stupid some times, but organised stupidity is... stupid.

Good luck.

[penfold]

Hi Cross,

My own experience was very different; I live in the UK which is largely secular. When I told my Dad that I had become an atheist, his response was "about bloody time". However there are some aspects of my life that people around me find baffling (I don't watch TV, I don't use facebook twitter myspace etc..., I am politically very far out on the left) I have found that in these areas people (even those I consider friends) will often react with hostility.

As for your situation. All these people you talk to are acting with the best intentions. They believe that your lack of faith condemns you. Being your friends, family and teachers, their belief that you are condemned is upsetting to them. (There is probably also an element of ego there too, when you tell them you don't believe they probably internalise that as you telling them they are wrong; so they react in a self defensive or angry way.)

I know it is hard to do so, but try and understand that, in their own misguided way, these people are trying to help you. The fact they say those things shows how much they care. In this you are extraordinarily lucky. Try to remember that. In time they will come to accept you for who they are, and those who don't will be left behind. In the mean time keep being brave, the longer you do the easier it will get.

All the best, and good luck.

[Cross]

Thanks guys, it's nice to get some advise about this subject.

 

And btw the Post above mine has a lot of good advice to consider when or if you do confront your family and friends :eek:

 Kind of ironic... But I'll try to be more durable. I'm use to getting odd looks by now.  

[AnimatedDirt]

If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

It's absolutely fear, but a healthy fear.  Similar to the kind of fear one might have for a parent.  Can we be 100% clear on God and His plan?  No.  Much like life as a child.  Many things are not understood, yet you trust your parent.  Will all your questions be answered?  Probably not.

The bottom line is simply that there's enough evidence to convince you there is no god and likewise there is enough evidence so that you can have the faith that there is a God.  It remains a choice and it is ultimately up to you in your heart and mind to make that decision.  Just don't let others make that choice for you.  Find it for yourself.  As a Christian myself, I hope you find what you need for faith in God.

[Tank]

If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

It's absolutely fear, but a healthy fear.  Similar to the kind of fear one might have for a parent.  Can we be 100% clear on God and His plan?  No.  Much like life as a child.  Many things are not understood, yet you trust your parent.  Will all your questions be answered?  Probably not.

The bottom line is simply that there's enough evidence to convince you there is no god and likewise there is enough evidence so that you can have the faith that there is a God.  It remains a choice and it is ultimately up to you in your heart and mind to make that decision.  Just don't let others make that choice for you.  Find it for yourself.  As a Christian myself, I hope you find what you need for faith in God.

As an atheist myself I hope you don't get sucked back under the comfort blanket that is institutionalist superstition aka religion, whichever particular flavour it may be. Superstition was a necessary evil in my opinion. Superstition has been and is still pretty much a universal human trait. Why? Because humans need answers and there are not always answers. Thus we have a situation where there is a gap in our understanding. Why does the Sun come up? Don't know! Panic! Insert solution, pre-science God Did It! Post science Newtonian orbital mechanics!

But why so many Gods? Well as God is a fiction it can be considered a unique fiction to each individual. So why not 7 billion Gods? Because people a social animals and like to belong to a group. So the tricksters of Judaism, Christianity and Islam make belonging to an in-group more acceptable than belonging to the out-group. How do they make being in the out-group the worst possible outcome? Well let me think. How about creating the worst possible fate! Yep, it's hell!

The creation of hell was a political expedient used by those who desired control over others. It does not exist and never has. How do I know? No consistent effective proof that it does. Lots of claims, no evidence. Religions, all of them, are bullshit peddled by the gullible, the mislead and the wilfully disingenuous.

But could God exist? Yes a God could exist. Why do I, an atheist, say this? Because I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that there is not an invisible pink unicorn nibbling your ear right now. But what evidence is there to support my assertion that there is an invisible pink unicorn nibbling your ear right now? None. So which is the more rational position to take; that there is or is not an invisible pink unicorn nibbling on your ear? You know the answer you're a bright kid.

But a God is not a Religion a religion is a construct of humanity and you are spot on with your observation that there are just too many for any one to be at all credible. If you go for authority, you have to be Jewish as they got there first and claim to be God's chosen people. If you want a friend then go for Jesus he seems a fairly approachable sort of guy, drinks wine, hangs out with ladies who may well not be perfect, bit of a rebel. If submission is what you want choose Islam and never bother to think again. Take your brain out and throw it away, being female you'll never need to use it again, find a bloke and start spiting out babies as that's all your good for, according to Islam.

Or alternatively simply stick it out for a few years until you can stand on your own two feet. This is the difficult option but it's the right option.

My three kids, al grown up now, had it relatively easy compared to you. Both I and my wife are atheists and we just let our kids find their own way. And what a surprise, they didn't get mugged by theists into believing ancient middle eastern mythology.

Good luck, be strong and keep in touch!

[TheJackel]

If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

It's absolutely fear, but a healthy fear.  Similar to the kind of fear one might have for a parent.  Can we be 100% clear on God and His plan?  No.  Much like life as a child.  Many things are not understood, yet you trust your parent.  Will all your questions be answered?  Probably not.

The bottom line is simply that there's enough evidence to convince you there is no god and likewise there is enough evidence so that you can have the faith that there is a God.  It remains a choice and it is ultimately up to you in your heart and mind to make that decision.  Just don't let others make that choice for you.  Find it for yourself.  As a Christian myself, I hope you find what you need for faith in God.

You have got to be kidding me. That is a very poor attempt to rationalize the use of fear, if not deflect from it. The threat of burning in hell, death or any other similar kind of use of fear is manipulative and psychologically abusive  :shake: . In fact that has a lot to do with why her parents or friends might tell her that she would be damned. It's a programmed response and really has nothing to do with concern vs keeping their children in line with the religion.  If you seriously think that is some kind of "Healthy Fear" in a parenting sense, you has some serious issues to work on. Do us a favor, please don't try rationalizing brainwashing tools as if they are magically ok   . If you have to control using such tactics, you shouldn't be a parent. EVER!

Other than this, I think it's best that she makes her choices without subliminal manipulation. Yes her parents love her, but that is not an excuse to not think for herself. So I do hope she takes the path that suites her views, and beliefs as a free thinker. It's ok to be religious, a theist, a believer in a Deity, an atheist, or whatever.

So my only advice is for her to learn what kind of dogma she will face in life, or how brainwashing works so she can protect herself. I recommend this to everyone.

[Sophus]

If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

It's absolutely fear, but a healthy fear.  Similar to the kind of fear one might have for a parent.  Can we be 100% clear on God and His plan?  No.  Much like life as a child.  Many things are not understood, yet you trust your parent.  Will all your questions be answered?  Probably not.

The bottom line is simply that there's enough evidence to convince you there is no god and likewise there is enough evidence so that you can have the faith that there is a God.  It remains a choice and it is ultimately up to you in your heart and mind to make that decision.  Just don't let others make that choice for you.  Find it for yourself.  As a Christian myself, I hope you find what you need for faith in God.

You have got to be kidding me. That is a very poor attempt to rationalize the use of fear, if not deflect from it. The threat of burning in hell, death or any other similar kind of use of fear is manipulative and psychologically abusive  :shake: . In fact that has a lot to do with why her parents or friends might tell her that she would be damned. It's a programmed response and really has nothing to do with concern vs keeping their children in line with the religion.  If you seriously think that is some kind of "Healthy Fear" in a parenting sense, you has some serious issues to work on. Do us a favor, please don't try rationalizing brainwashing tools as if they are magically ok   . If you have to control using such tactics, you shouldn't be a parent. EVER!

Other than this, I think it's best that she makes her choices without subliminal manipulation. Yes her parents love her, but that is not an excuse to not think for herself. So I do hope she takes the path that suites her views, and beliefs as a free thinker. It's ok to be religious, a theist, a believer in a Deity, an atheist, or whatever.

So my only advice is for her to learn what kind of dogma she will face in life, or how brainwashing works so she can protect herself. I recommend this to everyone.

Yes, I don't know if that comment qualifies as preaching but it did come across as bit of a low blow.

[AnimatedDirt]

Yes, I don't know if that comment qualifies as preaching but it did come across as bit of a low blow.

Sorry it wasn't meant as a blow of any sort.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Cross --

Hiyas.  I've found a pretty good way to deflect conversations away from becoming one-sided preaching sessions: "I respect your beliefs and would appreciate it if you'd respect my lack of belief."

And yes, you're right, most faith is based on fear.  No matter what anyone says (I'm looking at you, Animated Dirt), fear is not a healthy part of an adult-child relationship, and the moreso since as a parent, when my son misbehaves, I may punish him, but I don't throw him in the oven for all time.  Love doesn't behave that way.  Even Dirt's own Bible has some good words on it:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Think for yourself, educate yourself, and reexamine your basic premises on a regular basis.

[AnimatedDirt]

And yes, you're right, most faith is based on fear.  No matter what anyone says (I'm looking at you, Animated Dirt), fear is not a healthy part of an adult-child relationship, and the moreso since as a parent, when my son misbehaves, I may punish him, but I don't throw him in the oven for all time.  Love doesn't behave that way.  Even Dirt's own Bible has some good words on it:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

You're quite right, Thump (may I call you Thump?)  Lots and lots of Christians put belief in God out of fear.  However there are many if not also lots and lots that have faith in the understanding of, if the Bible account of God's salvation work is true,  what God has done FOR us.  Now, I realize it's a fable and all, I'm not intending on preaching to you so if you'd just take that as one basis of faith and not that all is based on fear.

Fear is healthy.  It certainly doesn't fit in a human parent/child relationship as in your context the parent is simply waiting to punish the child with or including fire and suffering.  (Again you will not agree, but the fire and suffering in the end is for those that have chosen not to be His children)  Without fear in this world, there would be more pain and more suffering.  Fear is that thing that keeps you from doing things that will or could hurt and/or kill you.  In that context, fear is healthy.

Again, I would agree with you that if a child continually fears their parent for the pain (one may assume abuse), then that fear is not a good thing for the relationship.

I am...

...ready for a scourging

[Thumpalumpacus]

You're quite right, Thump (may I call you Thump?)  Lots and lots of Christians put belief in God out of fear.  However there are many if not also lots and lots that have faith in the understanding of, if the Bible account of God's salvation work is true,  what God has done FOR us.  Now, I realize it's a fable and all, I'm not intending on preaching to you so if you'd just take that as one basis of faith and not that all is based on fear.

I know that not all of it is, nor do all Christians worship out of fear.  But a large number, perhaps a majority, do.  I know my mom does, because she's said as much to me, explicitly.  The prevalence of variations on Pascal's Wager is also indicative of this.

Fear is healthy.

When it causes one to be aware of avoidable harm, it can be.

It certainly doesn't fit in a human parent/child relationship as in your context the parent is simply waiting to punish the child with or including fire and suffering.  (Again you will not agree, but the fire and suffering in the end is for those that have chosen not to be His children)

Well, I don't bake people who don't like me, either.  I ask myself why they don't like me.  If it's something I can change without violating basic principles, I try to change -- especially when it will result in an improvement of the general happiness.  Even If they still do not to like me, I don't go out of my way to torment them; I merely avoid them.

Without fear in this world, there would be more pain and more suffering.  Fear is that thing that keeps you from doing things that will or could hurt and/or kill you.  In that context, fear is healthy.

But that is not the context we are using, so this analogy fails.

...ready for a scourging

Nah, my scourge is in the shop being fitted with new barbs in the tails and a nice leather handle.

[Cross]

-Smiles- It's okay guys, I don't think AnimatedDirt meant any harm. He is just offering me some advise.

  And I know, fear is was causes others to convert themselves. And they do so because it's been taught to them since they were young, or they're just ignorant enough to believe this or that. I'm kind of sensitive, and not as intelligent as you all yet. I'm just easily intimidated by what some person say.

 

(Again you will not agree, but the fire and suffering in the end is for those that have chosen not to be His children)

  That scares me. Not by what it is trying to say, but by how easily someone says it. I have never told anybody that they would go to hell, even when I was Christian. It hurts me when I hear someone put me down because I don't believe in the Christian God. I'm proud to be a atheist, because I'm sure I am one. I'm a person who relies heavily on scientific facts, and the bible seems like a fairy tale to me. Like some story fabricated by people to help explain how the world got here, and also how to control and manipulate people.

  I just don't know why other people don't take that to mind. Every time I try to explain it to them they just end it with this; your going to hell.

  I hate being sensitive, but I can't help but feel hurt that even my best friends would say that. I wish they would understand me. But I guess that's life, and I seriously need to toungh'n up.

  Anyway, I don't want to debate about this all my life, maybe on certain occasions if it is brought up, but that is it. I want to spend my life making my own path. I hate it when Christians say that are path is decided by their 'God' and that we are nothing but mere puppets, like sheep awaiting the shepherd. I am not a sheep to some invisible man floating in the sky. Or the unicorn currently nibbling my ear.... it kind of tickles. -giggles-

  And if we are the so-called 'children' of this God, why must we bow to him? You don't see me bowing to my parent.